Robyn Jacobson
Hi and welcome to TaxVibe, a podcast by the Tax Institute. I'm Robyn Jacobson, the senior advocate at The Tax Institute and the host of TaxVibe. On the show, I chat with some of the tax profession's greatest minds during each of the guest unique perspectives to give you valuable and practical insights. You may not hear every day. We hope you enjoy this episode of TaxVibe. Today I'm joined live in person at the South Australian Tax Forum by Tim Sandow, CTA, Tax Partner at BDO in Adelaide. Tim has more than 30 years of experience as a tax professional, including 25 years at the Big four. He provides income tax related advice to a wide variety of private and large public companies, as well as multinationals. He has advised on mergers and acquisitions, tax governance, corporate tax, international tax and employment tax issues. Tim is the partner leading BDO is national tax risk and Ethics group. Tim is also the national vice president of the Tax Institute for 2024, and is the South Australian representative on the National Board of the Tax Institute. Tim is a chat, a tax advisor with the Tax Institute and a Chartered Accountant with Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand. Tim, welcome to TaxVibe.
Tim Sandow
Thank you Robyn. It's lovely to be it and looking forward to the discussion today around risk and ethics. And I will say the opinions I shared today are my opinions, not necessarily those of the Tax Institute and not necessarily those of BDO.
Robyn Jacobson
So we are speaking, I'll just make this comment, from the Sir Donald Bradman Pavilion. So this is quite an esteemed place we're sitting in today.
Tim Sandow
Exactly. We're on holiday.
Robyn Jacobson
Yeah. All right. So a bit of scene setting. We've had a lot of attention squarely focused on the tax profession for the last 12, 20 months. And it's been in the media. It's been in political circles. Governance has come under the spotlight. And of course, professional or unprofessional conduct of particular practitioners. So we're not going to go into the specifics of that today. But in terms of where this has taken us and the journey we've been on at the last 12, 20 months, you've got a lot of background in managing risk and ethics of practitioners, and I'm really keen to explore that with you and unpack that further. But if we look at the reforms that are coming through the legislative landscape now, I think it's important we acknowledge that some of this was well in play before the revelations during 2023. So if we go back to 2019, there was a review of the TPB, the Tax Practitioners Board. There were 28 recommendations made and five of those made their way. And others are still to come into what I'm calling tranche one. So this is the Treasury Laws Amendment 2023 measures number one bills, a bit of a mouthful. And that bill has a number of measures in it.I’m not going to go through all those particular measures, but things like disqualified entities and not being able to take people on without getting approval from the board who are disqualified. But what we also saw last year, because of the revelations during the year is some amendments made to that bill in November, and there's amendments to that Bill. Number one were made by Bob Peacock, Senator Peacock and they deal with what we call the dubbing provisions. Now, that's the vernacular. And they fall term is they breach reporting rules. And I just want to mention all this as we get underway, because I think it does set the scene for where the rest of this conversation is going to go. Yep. Those rules were introduced into that bill without any warning and without consultation. And the main concern that we've got is around the breach reporting rules. We're still to receive guidance from the TPP as to what those rules are going to look like and how they're going to be played out in practice and what sort of guidance we got to get. But in terms of the administration, I know that it's something a lot of practitioners are concerned about. And then we've got the whole second tranche of measures which did come out of the revelations of last year. And that's what I'm calling the second tranche. And this is all the promoter penalties and the information sharing, etc. powers of the TPB and greater sanctions. So there's been a lot of movement. Some of it's enacted as law, some of it has already started on the 1st of January. Some of it starts 1st July this year, and some of it is still to come. So your initial reaction to all of this progression of legislation.
Tim Sandow
Robyn, I think you're right. I think that the events of last year really sort of was almost like that lightning bolt out of the storm cloud that brought it all to a head. I think the community's expectations around tax practitioners has probably gone up a step. I think it's pretty interesting. I think that's, nobody likes paying more tax than they should, and I expect their accounts to tell them about, well, what are the opportunities? I've got to save some tax, but I think there is a line there. And is it that where do you actually cross that line? I guess the other comment on how just about what we saw towards the last end of last year was there there were a couple of changes which I thought were a little bit reactionary and maybe not really addressing what the real issue was. And for example, the changes to the community representations on our tax practitioners border and limiting that to one firms of under 100 people. I just thought if the issue here is about managing conflicts of interest, there's actually not addressing what the issue is. And so it's very hard to see how you have community representatives when you're excluding a portion of the community that I should be representing.
Robyn Jacobson
And there would be an outcry if there was, let's say a TP board that was completely represented by Big Four or even second tier firms and no one from the assembly sector. But conversely, they shouldn't be a board made up of only SMB practitioners and no one from the big four.
Tim Sandow
That's right. And I and I think that's where it's about really understanding what's the core issue that we're worried about. And here's the remedy addressing what that core issue is. And I just wonder with some of the things we're seeing coming through now, particularly when there's very little time to make a submission in consultation with, it's just been a little bit rushed and reaction. Right.
Robyn Jacobson
Is it fair to say that what happened to that last year or the revelations last year? I should say, because the events obviously go back many years before that highlighted some drawbacks in the system. There were some areas where it was clear that the TPP was not able to share certain information and sign with the ACR. So has the pendulum swung too far in trying to respond to some of those deficiencies in the current framework?
Tim Sandow
Yeah. Look, I think it is. I mean, I think the average person on the street would probably be surprised by some of that sort of thing. But, you don't have this sort of communication channel between Treasury, the ATO in TPP. So in some ways that sort of information sharing doesn't feel like it's a surprise. So like it'll be interesting to see how that does evolve. Well, I think and obviously we're seeing an enormous number of resources now being allocated to the TPP guys in terms of the fair, the number of fan employees they have, but then also the technology that will be investing in we are going to feel like we are being monitored.
Robyn Jacobson
So talk to me about loopholes. That's an expression that is tossed around from time to time. Yeah. They can be defined in many different ways, but what is the responsibility of practitioners when it comes to either actual or perceived loopholes?
Tim Sandow
Yeah. And I thought, I guess that there's a lot of emotion in some of these words because usually they talk about exploiting loopholes. And it's the large companies and the multinationals and the big tax advisors. So all that exploiting loopholes. I think what I would say is there's very few really genuine loopholes, and they tend to exist for a short period of time, and then they get shut down the site. My caution to someone who feels like they have found a loophole is to really examine it very carefully, because what I often find is I'll come up with a really brilliant idea, or someone else will come to me with a really brilliant idea and then will say, have you thought of? And there'll be an integrity measure which I could apply. And, and I think I'm going to talk a bit about as we go through today about the power of the network having a really good, strong network, because what I find is that it's very hard to have all the knowledge in your own head. And so often when you're talking to somebody else, you can actually draw out, what is it that I'm missing here? So I think my first caution with day, is it really a loophole or is this something already in the law that sky to counter it, I think the next thing I'd be looking at would be to say, okay, well, look, maybe it is a gray area, a genuinely gray area. My next question is, is there a reasonably arguable position and is it just a reasonably arguable position or is it a very solid position. I think by then this is the next question about the discussion with that clients to say, look, this is genuinely a gray area, and I always like to talk to clients about having an eye to the bigger picture too often of saying tax planning and loopholes and stuff being exploited. When I save a small amount of tax now. But the long term consequences are quite large. And particularly if were waking the client who might have a terrific business, they want to sell it, or they want to do an IP, and we come in and we say, look, if you want to sell your business, the tax that comes from selling the shares in this company are significantly better than selling the assets. But if you want to sell the shares, that company needs to be squeaky clean. And so if there's something in there that looks like a tax dodge or at a position that someone's taken, even if the current adviser says that's erasing the arguable position, the purchaser is going to look at it and go, you know what? I'm either going to hold back some money or the deal doesn't go ahead. So saving that small amount of tax in the short term can have some really big long term consequences. So I think that we just need to be really careful at that, exploiting tax loopholes a bit. I think really genuinely there. And maybe a test for that isn't a rabbit hole for him. If I went to the tax office to ask for a private ruling that the it, I would agree and sometimes I did. I mean, you look back in time now for instance, from the rights the future income provision came out in 2010. In tax consolidations, there was billions of dollars of tax deductions were claimed at that time because the law didn't apply in the way that it was intended, and then it was shut down. So from time to time, as loopholes exist, I just tried really carefully.
Robyn Jacobson
So you make the point to about having a network around you that you can draw on. And that's so important because as experienced practitioners, we know that classic tax law, there'll be a rule, there'll be an exception to that rule, and then there'll be an exception to the exception. Correct. And if you really lucky, you'll find a fourth one.
Tim Sandow
That's right.
Robyn Jacobson
Younger practitioners or those who are perhaps not as technically proficient or don't spend their lives buried in the law itself, may not have the visibility over some of those deeper provisions that provide the exceptions or exceptions to exceptions. Yeah. So that's why reaching out to networks that look, has anyone encountered this or is there anything I've missed? It's such an important question to ask.
Tim Sandow
It really is. And I guess what I find is, I'm becoming more experienced is that I don't need to know everything. But if something feels a bit too good to be true, like if someone comes to me and says, I don't think this is taxable, I think we get a deduction for that. you know, whatever might be like, I remember that law coming out. I don't think that's the way it was supposed to apply. So if it feels too good to be true, I think that's the we need to really start asking some deep questions.
Robyn Jacobson
And look, let's link it back to obligations. Here. We have an item, as I referred to in the Code of Professional Conduct in the Tax Agent Services Act, and it requires you to act lawfully in the best interests of your client.
Tim Sandow
Yeah.
Robyn Jacobson
So it's not just act in the best interests of your client. It's act lawfully in the best interests of your client.
Tim Sandow
Yeah, yeah. And I think the lawfully thing is the really important bit. And way I kind of look at that is I think if I've gone through that process that I talked to that before and it is something that exists and it is lawful, then I think to act lawfully in the best interests of my client would suggest that I should talk to the client about it. But I think this is where that communication with the client becomes really important, because that's when we can talk to the client and say, look, lawfully, I think this exists, but there is a risk. And then we can talk about what that risk might be. And, you know, whether that's something that we want to pursue. And it is interesting. And yeah, if if I look at what's happening globally because this is not an Australian only issue, the International Ethics Standards Board for accountants has been looking at some tax planning and, whether there should be this overriding public interest test. The discussion paper that I put out, it's very hard to articulate what in the public interest rates. So a and I'm sort of conscious as well that. Yeah, if you look at for instance, for example, in that case, and about reading the legislation assets as it's written and how you introduce other materials, including rulings, you know, that sort of statutory interpretation, part of it becomes critical. I mean, I've had instances where, you know, I've gone to the ATO to say, look, in my tax situation, I don't think the law was applied properly and quite rightly, they've said, Tim, I understand it's a bit unfair in your situation, but we have to interpret the law as its written. Yeah, but I think that goes both ways as well. So if the law is clear, then I think that, while there may not be an overriding public interest test, I think that the way they're articulating and just to say you need to talk to your client and explain what the risks are.
Robyn Jacobson
Something else that you talked about lawfully, we discussed that particular word. We're not thinking of tax evasion. I may that's acting outside the letter of the law.
Tim Sandow
Yes.
Robyn Jacobson
Part IVA and the general anti-avoidance rules and other anti-avoidance rules or equity measures to me is where you're acting within the letter of the law but outside the spirit of the law.
Tim Sandow
Yes.
Robyn Jacobson
So when we're talking acting lawfully in the best interests of your clients, are we talking the letter of the law or also the spirit of the law?
Tim Sandow
look, I think we have to be mindful to both. Yeah. and I think if we're acting outside of the the spirit of the law, I think we just really need to be very mindful of, we are 100% confident that this is what we want to do it.
Robyn Jacobson
I'm a client, I come in, I give you a whole bunch of information that could be in written form. I might be conveying things verbally to you. Can you believe what I'm telling you?
Tim Sandow
Okay, look, this is a really interesting one. And again, and under the code of conduct, we require to take reasonable care. So, what is reasonable care? if you look through the guidance, it talks about exercising professional judgment. Again, what's exercising professional judgment. So if a clime brings in a whole stack of information, I'm not required to do an audit. I don't have to verify every piece of information in that building. But I am expected to look at that with professional judgment and skepticism and say, what do I know about this person? What do I know about the industry that I operating? And I think for me, professional judgment is about standing back and saying, before that client walks in, what am I expecting to see? And if what they give me will be law, and then I can probably largely accept what they're telling me if something looks unusual, I think that's when this professional judgment skepticism steps aside. yes. I think you can accept what people tell you, providing there's nothing this really flagging. There's no red flag that thinks that doesn't quite sound right.
Robyn Jacobson
And tax agents are not auditors. Correct. So they're not required to go through an audit and sign off and certify that everything is true and correct in that respect. But in what circumstances is further investigation warranted when you supposed to dive deeper or ask further questions?
Tim Sandow
Yeah. Look, it's a good question, Robyn. I think that, as I said before, when something doesn't look and feel right, so and look an example for this might be, I mean, if I'm preparing the accounts and I'm not absolutely everything that's in there, then I probably know I'm not just accepting it. if, for example, I've got a client who's got their own bookkeeper or I've got their own accounting team, and they present me with a trial balance or a draft set of accounts, they might say, look, we don't want you to have a look at legal fees, for instance.
Tim Sandow
And I might say, oh, okay. Well, let's just have a look. Oh, that's I'm like, oh, that's I need $3,000 or whatever. That's probably to do with leases or something. Yeah, I'm I can accept that. If that number was $3,000 last year is $500,000 this year. Yeah. I don't think I can just accept that. Yeah. So I think that, in fact, talking to an accountant recently and I had that situation that actually found out that the owner of the business had put it through all of their, family law expenses that after the divorce they were going through, they'd put through their company. So, and he said, well, I was protecting my, my mum, my company for my spouse. So it should be deductible. Oh, do. Yeah. No, I know I do.
Robyn Jacobson
I can think of another anecdote. I heard of a firm that took over another small practice. and in doing so, they picked up the balance sheets of lots of their new clients. I'm having a look. And there was a property sitting on the books, and so I just asked to read normal due diligence. what's this property and what do you use it for with, like I said, etc.? Well, it turns out that property had been sold some years prior and for whatever reason had not been correctly accounted for. And it meant that the property that was showing as the debit on the balance sheet was in fact a debit loan, because the proceeds on sale had been taken up by the shareholders. So it was a Division seven problem. Yep. And without asking the right questions, you don't unveil these things now.
Tim Sandow
That's right. And I think that's where there is. There is a real role for experience. And again, a role for talking to other people and to saying now sometimes the professional judgment is also talking to somebody else and saying, does this feel right to you? And it's amazing how many times we talk to a colleague or even another member and just say, can you experience difficulty? This is right in my mind silently. And and I know that often happens in this industry or whatever month, but a conversation you can have with someone, it's just got old.
Robyn Jacobson
Tim, next scenario. I'm your client. You give me some advice and I don't like it. I don't want you to lodge my return on that basis, or I'm insisting that you do claim something that you know shouldn't be client. What do you do now?
Tim Sandow
Yeah, this is a really tricky one, Robyn, because, the correct answer is to say I'm going to refuse to lie to retain. And I think that's sort of, you know, even more important, we saw last the end of last year the, exposure draft on the code of conduct that came out, but really reinforced that a tax agent must not make a false and misleading statement to the commissioner, which includes lodging a tax return. So if that number, but it starts talking their bad material amounts as well. there's that expectation that we're always absolutely perfect. But I think that if the client's refusing to follow our advice and wants us to approach that retail, then the why? I like to look at this. I've got a colleague who describes this really well. She says, how we feel in three years time, looking back at what you did. And I think that making that taste like cake. Will the future team feel like looking back is a really good way of looking at it? Because if I'm going to lodge that, retain and feel sick in my stomach that I've done it, I think that's telling me I shouldn't do it. If I'm looking at it and thinking, well, it's only a very small amount, there isn't an argument. I can sort of almost get the I'll talk to somebody and see what they say. maybe I can get there. But, I do like this idea of the future self test, you know, how do I feel looking back about what I've done and if I'm going to feel sick that you know the item up, review it, then I think that's a really a really big test. And the other thing I'd say, of course, that client could go to another accounting and anyway, and that other accountant picks it up, maybe they're going to tell me none of these new domain rules. So I think that's, doing something now which you're not comfortable with, that you don't just have the risk of the tax office picking it up. You've got the risk of somebody else, a fellow tax agent, picking it up a name, feeling compelled to you out and doing all right.
Robyn Jacobson
So you've slept on it. It doesn't sit well with you because you've decided to claim it anyway. Then there's clearly a problem with your conduct as well as me as a taxpayer. If, however, you say, no, Robyn, you're not allowed to climb out. And that's my advice. Does it change anything? If I represent a really big chunk of your face? I'm a long term client. We've had a great relationship. You've looked after my affairs and that of my family, all my business interests, for 30 years.
Tim Sandow
That's right. And you referred me off to your friends and your friends in airports as well. And. Yeah, look, I mean, and this is where that's sort of, when we know the right answer is not to lodge the tax return becomes so much more difficult. the comment I'd have about that is, I still think you have to sit back and think about what does this do to my reputation? Do I want to be known as the person that can be walked over and lodge the tax return? Anyway, we'll talk a little bit later about reputation, but for me personally, I kind of fake. I've spent 30 years building a reputation. Am I prepared to let that go for the sake of lodging a tax return with an extra deduction? It and I try and weigh that up against the fees from the client and whatever. It's really going to be the case that it's worth it.
Robyn Jacobson
Well, weighing up on one hand, trying to look after one client supposedly this is putting at risk your entire practice.
Tim Sandow
Your entire practice, your entire career. And I doubt that client way there to support you when it all goes to pot. Yeah. Agreed.
Robyn Jacobson
All right. So moving on to the next bits. What duties do you have as a practitioner when you pick up a new client?
Tim Sandow
Yeah. Look, and I think this is getting a little bit interesting at the moment because the it's put out their best practice principles, which were aimed at the big four and the big four was signed up to them about 18 months ago. And now the it's having come and side with the mid tier firms. And so firms like ours and others about whether we would also like to adopt these and make a statement on our website that we've adopted the best practice principles. In some ways, the best practice principles are really restating a lot of the stuff we know already. There's very consistent with five. The tax agents code of conduct and also with the accounting body's ethical standards. So they're very consistent with that. One of the things I do talk about though is effectively you should not be doing, taking a position unless there's a reasonably arguable position. They also talk about if you're picking up a new client, you should be looking at what they've done in the past to see if they've all side paying, adopting, raising positions or what they've done in the past. So to me, that puts it an extra layer on top of what we probably already would have done. And I think that, often we might have just picked up a new client and, accepted what they've done in the past and focused on the future. So this is sort of suggesting there's an extra obligation to go back and have a look. that, of course, becomes even more so if the, for instance, there's been a position that's taken in the past which has an on going implications for tax returns that I might watch. Now, I will say.
Robyn Jacobson
E.g. Divison 7A. So let's assume again, I've walked through the door and the first thing you do is look at my company's balance sheet and you find there's a Division seven I learned from three years ago that has not been placed on complying terms, and there's no evidence that that amount was included as a team dividend in that year. Tax. So we got a problem. Or look at most graduates. We've got an issue with that not being declared a dividend in the year the loan was made. Let's assume there was a complying loan agreement. But then none of the repayments have been made. So that's where it becomes an ongoing issue for you. What do you do in that case.
Tim Sandow
So look, Robyn, I think we'd be looking for the commission's discretion and, he can't ignore that sort of thing. And, I'll be very interested to see the TV base guidelines when they come out about dob-in provision yet. Because is this something that is serious enough, substantial that that would obligate me to dob in a practitioner and I feel really glad about that. You know, particularly if it's more of a mistake as opposed to a systematic exploitation of tax loopholes.
Robyn Jacobson
But interesting with these new breach reporting rules, am I yet to see some guidance from the TPB, so at the moment all we've got a literally the provisions themselves. There was no explanatory statement or memorandum accompanying the amendments been put through the Senate. So we've literally got the letter of the law only. There's nothing there about intent. So it doesn't talk about why you might have breached the rules or whether it was inadvertent. It questions whether there has been a significant breach and whether you have a reasonable belief that that has occurred. So what obligation are you under? And a practitioner may not want to do it. But the problem is you've got a positive obligation to report them, to dob them in. Otherwise you face penalties yourself one day.
Tim Sandow
There is that there is a time period for when I have to make that decision.
Robyn Jacobson
30 days.
Tim Sandow
It's not a long time.
Robyn Jacobson
It is not.
Tim Sandow
So I'm really looking forward to seeing what these guidelines say. but I do worry about it. And I do worry about the positive obligation it's putting on the tax profession to self-regulate.
Robyn Jacobson
Yeah.
Tim Sandow
And, and whether that's there.
Robyn Jacobson
Is interesting in the review of the TPB, so this was the James review. There was a comment that it is for the government agency. I.e. the TPD to regulate the profession and the conduct of agents. And it's not for the profession to self regulate.
Tim Sandow
Now, I and I look, I'm very busy and I think all of our members are extremely busy to expect us to also be stopping thinking and worrying about whether or not I should be dubbing in somebody else. We'll face some breach myself if I don't. well, on top of a very busy workload. Is that really the best use of our time?
Robyn Jacobson
But we can see where the system from. Now, competence.
Tim Sandow
Yes.
Robyn Jacobson
So obviously we have an obligation under the code as tax agents we need to provide our services competent like me. What happens when you act outside your sphere of competence?
Tim Sandow
I think more and more, Robyn, it is dangerous to do that. I think it's very important to understand what you know and what you die by. For instance, for me, we sat through this morning a session on GST and the GST margin scheme. I would not touch advice on GST and margin schemes, but I'm not here to call and I think that's really important. I think that's when we talk about the power of a network. I think it's really important to understand what you mean, know, not venturing far away from that, because I just think it's fraught with danger in term. You know, when you practice in an area and you know that area, you know, where all of the integrity measures, you know, where the exceptions and the exceptions to the exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions and the exceptions, all set. And so you're less likely to trip up and make a mistake when you're dabbling in an area that you're not quite familiar with. The risk is just getting too high. And hindsight's a perfect thing. So, you know, it's very easy in three years time for the future self to look back and say, why didn't I do that? Yeah. And for the client to say, why did you give me that advice? You were negligent because you didn't know about this.
Robyn Jacobson
So I actually got I can think of four implications here. We've got the possibility of being sued for negligence, although it has to be said that over the years they haven't been too many successful claims against accountants. We've got the risk of breaching the code, which requires you to provide your services competently. Yeah. There is the risk of breaching relevant bylaws of the professional association of which you are not. Yeah. And then we've got the other issue being the professional indemnity insurance policy.
Tim Sandow
Yes.
Robyn Jacobson
Which does tied to the negligence I accept. But there's a number of matters that come up there, whether or indeed covered and whether you're going to be going through litigation and whether there are sanctions.
Tim Sandow
And that's right, Robyn. What's interesting is over the years, from my understanding, is a lot of the claims of negligence against accountants have been in relation to small business CGT provisions, which are often extraordinary because those provisions are supposed to, you know, be there for ACMA companies and practitioners and they are some of the most difficult to understand.
Robyn Jacobson
Best fail in terms of also providing services as an accountant versus a lawyer. And this gets really important when it comes to state tax issues.
Tim Sandow
It's important when it comes to state tax issues because obviously, you know, as a tax agent, we provide advice on the federal law about income tax and JSA, FBT and so on. So stamp duty, payroll tax and so on. one standing, not, covered by tax agent services. So we have to be very careful as accounts about how far we strike into those state taxes. I think we have to be very careful also about the documents we draw for clients. particularly if they look like an illegal agreement. now I'm saying trust deeds being drafted by accountants. And I think, you know, I don't think I would do that.
Robyn Jacobson
And I think it's important just to strip this back and come back to some core principles here. Accountants are not lawyers. Accountants cannot advise on the law. And that is why we have the Taxation Services Act, because if not for that, then no accountant would be allowed to give advice on tax law.
Tim Sandow
That's right.
Robyn Jacobson
So tests are exists to allow accountants to be able to advise others on the preparation of tax returns and relevant statements, but also more broadly on transactions and arrangements. but TSA is federal law and governs federal tax laws, whether that be FBT, GST, income tax. But as you say, when we're talking about payroll tax, land tax and stamp duty, those are state taxes. Yeah. And losses would be a potential one across the federal. But some and I call it a class because you cannot expense at a state level. But they have levies and things like that. All sorts also apply the Texas taxes that we're all going to disappear. Yeah. And so advancing on those is getting into very thin ice. When it gets to the ability of an accountant to lawfully provide these services.
Tim Sandow
Yes. And where that becomes interesting is that clients, I expect us to be talking about, I particularly if a client comes up to us and says, can you look after my affairs? That normally means can you also make sure I'm paying payroll tax? Yeah. So again, having somebody in your network, good law lawyer in your network, who you can talk to about these things is is also very important.
Robyn Jacobson
Does it fair to say the more we all learn about tax, the less we feel we know about it?
Tim Sandow
look, it's it's really just. I've said that forever. The older I get, the more I see it. I in fact, I was talking to a very senior tax partner just recently. He was a doyen of the industry. And he said, Tim, the more I know about tax, the less I know. And I said, that's exactly how I feel. my other thing I say is I, I need to know everything. I just need to know who to call. Yeah, yeah.
Robyn Jacobson
So quickly, to wrap up, in terms of being accountable for advice to others in your practice might be providing.
Tim Sandow
Yeah. So if is something you can take out of the events of last year, is that, when you're in business with other people, you spend a lot of time building a reputation and which can be tainted by what other people do within that, within the same. And so I think you have to be very careful about knowing a bit about what your fellow partners, directors, business owners are doing and whether that is consistent with your own risk profile. Yeah. So because I think that reputations take a long time to build and a second to destroy. So we just need to be very careful and very mindful about what others in our practice doing.
Robyn Jacobson
Advice to practitioners, if they have an ethical issue, what should they do?
Tim Sandow
Talk to someone that it's amazing. When you talk to someone, you start to voice it. Sometimes as you're voicing it, the answer comes to you. The mere act of actually saying it out loud, rather than having a rattling around in your head, can often resolve the issue for you, but it's surprising how many times you can talk to someone and else have another opinion or another approach. And, have some words of advice about how you might approach so that in a day that network where you can ask those questions, it's just really critical.
Robyn Jacobson
Thank you. Look, Tim, I've really appreciated the discussion. We've covered quite a lot of ground. And I actually it's been there's some venues practitioners who are wondering how they best place the next.
Tim Sandow
Yeah. No, thank you, I rather enjoyed it. Thank you.
Robyn Jacobson
Thanks for listening to this episode of TaxVibe, I've been chatting with Tim Sandow, CTA and Tax Partner at BDO. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love for you to subscribe, rate and review TaxVibe wherever you listen. We welcome any feedback and suggestions. To catch all the latest from TaxVibe and The Tax Institute. Please join us on LinkedIn. If you're interested in being at the centre of the tax conversation. A membership with The Tax Institute could be just what you need. Stay current and connected with tangible, real world benefits. Learn more at taxinstitute.com.au. Thanks again and till next time on TaxVibe.